PAK-FA and F-22
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PAK-FA and F-22
Saturday, December 18, 2004 (12:00 PM)

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Posted by
WenASe (68)
Edit
PAK-FA and F-22
Can Pak-fa be comparable to F-22 and JSF?

Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
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RE: PAK-FA and F-22
Posted: December 18, 2004 (12:30 PM)
If we read characteristics of F-22 and MiG 1.44 and Sukhoi 47, we will see that the russians are better. So T-50 I think will have a lot of tech of Su-47 and MiG 1.44.

If is better or not T-50 against F-22 and F-35 we will se only in combat (after many years).

What are we doing are only speculations and opinions.

What I don't understanding is how can Russia keep the step with western with so fewer money.
If any is very good in aeronautics will go at NASA BOEING GRUMMAN or at another US company because there are money. In Russia sallary are aprox 300$ in aviation industry. Is anybody for ex. from Germany that will go to work for Sukhoi. He want to work for BAE DASSAULT NASA etc. Am I right?

P.S. russians are better in aeronautics and astronautics in general, my opinion.


Posted by
WenASe (68)
Edit
RE: PAK-FA and F-22
Posted: December 18, 2004 (6:15 PM)
I personally think that Russians will make every effort to catch up with U.S in technology no matter how poor they are. Russians may know how to figure this problem out.

Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
Edit
RE: PAK-FA and F-22
Posted: December 19, 2004 (6:32 PM)
I know that USA give money to help in new development and to make new prototype.
In Russia only money come from sales (after 1991).

Am I right? I saw that on Discovery Channel.


Posted by
Greek (44)
Edit
RE: PAK-FA and F-22
Posted: January 18, 2006 (5:44 PM)
I totally agree with Sukhoy. I belive myself that Russians are far ahead from USA not only in the aeronautics.
I read a short article about the PAK FA (T-50). In the previous page there was another short article about the F-35 JSF and its production progress for the Turkish Air Force. In both articles there was a photo of the aircraft mentioned. They are awfully alike! The air intakes, the tail canards the nearly-vertical tail rudders.
Who cheated from whom?
I think it will be a great aircraft though, no matter what.and I'm almost certain that the PAK will be the winner of a future air-combat b2in PAK-JSF!

Posted by
HinaKentoKer (1)
Edit
RE: PAK-FA and F-22
Posted: August 31, 2006 (9:00 AM)
Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4:1(4 Su-35's destroyed for each EF-2000 lost)

The F-22 achieved a ratio of 10 to 1.

This means that it only takes one F-22 to destroy ten Su-35's! The F-22 might be expensive, but think about it, ten Su-35's cost way more than one F-22 Raptor!

The PAK-FA only exists on paper, there's not even a prototype yet.

So if you want to be realistic and talk about who is ahead right now than its actually very simple. The American F-22 Raptor is currently the best fighter jet in the world under production.

***Note***

Russia has not ordered Su-37s, the aircraft is not in production.

The two Su-37 prototypes that existed were converted into Su-35 Flankers, another Sukhoi prototype fighter.


Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
Edit
RE: PAK-FA and F-22
Posted: September 18, 2006 (10:05 AM)
That statistic is bull shit for me.

Su-35 Vs. F-22. 1:10 ? ? ?. I don't understund.1 Su-35 vs. 1 F-22, Su-35 downed, another Su-35 take off, again F-22 downed it. After 5-6 missiles fired from F-22, F-22 must reload. So, this will be for infinite.

If 10 Su-35 are in the air vs. 1 F-22, F-22 will down 5-6 Su-35 maybe fewer, due to SU ability to evade missiles (maybe best ability in the world), F-22 will have no missile, so. . mission for the remaining Su will be easy.
10:1 is not a chance for SU. is like infinite to 1 ratio.
But is still bull shit for me. From where americans know the detection ability of the Su-35, or ECM or ECCM, or stealth (plasma) etc. Be more realists. Of course F-22 is the best in the world, I agree.


Posted by
Fuzz (1)
Edit
RE: PAK-FA and F-22
Posted: September 21, 2006 (4:50 PM)
The test results are not from a single flight, but a war-time theoretical analysis of multiple flights over the course of a battle. That's how you achieve a kill ratio better greater than the missles you carry.

The simple fact is that the F-22 is currently impossible for any singlular plane based radar to detect before the F-22 has fired all of its missles. There is no variable in 'pilot skill' in this because it is all technology, and a more reliable passive factor in determining the outcome.

In certain scenarios, say 2 F-22s versus 4-6 SU-30s, all alone with no ground radar support, it is unlikely the F-22s will ever be shot down. The kill ratio may be 100:1 for that type of situation because it plays to the F-22's greatest strength. The F-22s can simply fire and run away before they are seen.

However if the F-22 is caught in range of multiple radars (at different angles) at close range near an airfield and an equal number of SU-30s are scrambled, it is probably only going to get a 1:1 kill ratio at best with its stealth negated. The F-22 is still highly manuverable, but I doubt it's the best. It will be up to a greater reliance on pilot skill for that type of outcome.


Posted by
coolagekid (1)
Edit
RE: PAK-FA and F-22
Posted: October 20, 2006 (10:06 PM)
I too agree that the F-22's combat kill ratio of 10:1 is scenario related; however, that is the most likely scenario in modern air-combat. Of course we can develop a situation in which the F-22 could not take advantage of its strengths but those scenarios are highly improbable. That said I admire the russians for their superior airframes and their amazing ability to develop incredible aircraft on a low-budget. I am keptical about plasma stealth; however, because it seems to me that if you block the radar waves with electromagnetic fields then your radar would be blinded as well. Perhaps leave the nose of the aircraft exposed?

Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
Edit
RE: PAK-FA and F-22
Posted: October 23, 2006 (11:03 AM)
First generation of plasma appeared in 1999. It blinded both enemies' and yours radar as well. But now russians have 3rd gen plasma that can let your radar to work very well and any other unwelcomed radar beam are stopped.

Posted by
MarlboroMan (30)
Edit
RE: PAK-FA and F-22
Posted: December 15, 2006 (1:37 AM)
Sorry I been gone guys, been busy. Now down to the discussion.

The PAK FA was designed to compete with the F-35 Lighting II (AKA JSF) not the F-22. They are two different leagues.

The Su-35 vs. the F-22? Well for one these aircraft are built with two different purposes in mind.

If one looks at the Su-35/37 they notice forward canards. Something that only the americans are not incorporating into their new fighters. The reason for this is forward canards speak to manuverability in a pinch. This boils down to dogfighting. In the hands of pilots of equal skill, the Su's have the advantage in a dogfight.

However dogfights account for only 1 out of 10 aerial victories. The rest being attained in BVR (beyond vidual range) combat. This is what the F-22 was designed for.

You see we've all seen movies like "Top Gun" and "Iron Eagle" and when we think of a missile being fired we think "Break Right!" Well against short range missiles that works. Against longer range missiles such as the AMRAAM this doesn't work. When one fires an AMRAAM at you that's flying mach-4/5 you don't try to break right. Its got plenty of time to compensate, and you don't wait for it to get close then dodge, its moving to fast. What you do is go into erratic manuvers forcing the missile to use up fuel and speed to keep up. The goal being to either cause it to burn up its fuel, or lose so much speed matching your manuvers that you can dodge it.

The F-22 was designed with this purpose in mind. Get so close you can't escape the missiles, fire them, then leave. Dogfighting only as a last resort.

In BVR combat the F-22 has a clear advantage. Also keep in mind AIM-120 are more effective from an F-22, why? Despite what you see in the movies in most air to air combat the fighters stay close to the ground to stay out of the view of surface to air missiles. The stealth F-22 does not, and its high altitude and supercruising speed adds range and speed to the missiles.

There is no doubt in my mind the F-22 is capable of scoring a 10-1 ratio on the Su-35 based purely on the merits of the plane. However combat is much more complicated than this. Those fighting the F-22 will try to avoid engaging it unless they are over their home territory with SAM's, and multiple radars to help them. The americans will send F-35's and F/A-18's on Wild Weasel to degrade this capability. The determinant factor in the battle of Su-35 vs. F-22 is distance. From long range I don't think even the Su-35 could escape such a close missile launch. In a close range fight, both have thrust vectoring, and the Su has canards. However one thing often overlooked in the craft's manuverability is weight. Russian aircraft are big, mean, and heavy. American aircraft are lighter making them easier to move.

I think the Su-35 would likely retain the manuverability advantage which could give a skilled enough pilot an edge, but its getting that close that's the key. A favorite American tactic is "the grinder" where aircraft go high, launch AIM-120, then spiral downward presenting a confusing radar image. From here they retreat reform, and come back. A Su-35 would have to dodge the AIM-120's, then kick in his afterburners to catch the supercruising F-22 before it reforms. This leads to a short combat time.

For russian aircraft fighting the F-22 will depend on its ability to do the following. Find the F-22's avoid their missiles, close the distance, force them into a dogfight, and shoot them down before the Su or Mig "bingo's" on fuel. If a Su can force an F-22 into a dogfight he has a chance, without it, I don't like his odds.

As far as PAKFA vs. F-22, this is like comparing F-22 to F-35 JSF, aircraft designed on different parameters. A better comparison is the PAKFA versus the F-35 in which case unless the F-35 pilot is of much higher quality the PAKFA wins. Thanks to congressional penny-pinching the Air Force has been forced to dump more and more tasks on the F-35. This leads to compromise and to many have been made.

The F-35's better wait until the F-22's clean the skies out for them.

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