Subs vs Aircrafts
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Subs vs Aircrafts
Friday, January 20, 2006 (6:17 PM)

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Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
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Subs vs Aircrafts
Can a subs detect an aircraft? Maybe only due to satelites datalink?
What type of radar have the subs? Only sonar? Maybe I put some stupid questions but some of us didn't know the answers.

And how an aircraft can detect an enemy subs?


Posted by
Greek (44)
Edit
RE: Subs vs Aircrafts
Posted: January 20, 2006 (7:32 PM)
They aren't stupid questions at all. Having spent many hours on aircraft and sub simulators , I think I'm in position to give you some answers:

a)Can a sub detect an aircraft? Yes it can, and not only due to satelite -or any other kind of- datalink. Subs have one radar to detect both naval and air targets. However, using it is a huge risk and the reason is obvious: the sub's position is revealed, the ASW airplanes and helos gather around and the poor sub ends up playing chess with the "Titanic". The safest way for the sub to detect an aircraft is through ESM (Electronic Support Measures). ESM (known as Passive radar in the past I think) gathers mainly radar and -possibly- radio emissions via an antenna that comes out of the water (like the periscope), analyses them and comes up with the type of the emissive boat or aircraft. Given the fact, of course, that they do not use EMCON tactics (radar & radio silence).

b)How an aircraft can detect an enemy sub? First with its ESM sensors if the sub is using its radar, as I said above. But something like this is unlike to happen (I very rarely use radar in the simulator myself). So, the aircraft uses its own radar (A-G mode) and it has some very good chances of getting the sub, provided that it is on the surface. Otherwise the only way to be detected is with a dipping sonar (helicopter) or sonar buoys (aircraft). ASW aircrafts have another device called MAD (Magnetic Anomally Detector)used for ASW, but I'm not sure how that gadget works.

All in a word Anti-Submarine-Warfare (ASW), is nothing but a cat and mouse game!
PS: Some warships even have commercial radars along with their military ones, so as to comfuse enemy ESM's of any kind (sub, aircraft or other ships's.).


Posted by
JSF_fan (48)
Edit
RE: Subs vs Aircrafts
Posted: February 14, 2006 (2:04 AM)
Sonar is sound waves right, thats why there is such a huge fuss on submarines that everyone keeps as quite as possible and why the sub is engineered to be damn quite.
There is sort of race between submarines and anti-submarine equipment. The only thing feared the most by a ships captain is a good submarine with a very good crew. IF these two things are combined the ship has a huge problem. Thats why during the cold war the US, the USSR and other countries put a lot of work into anti-submarine systems. The US is most deffinetly ahead in this era but people always asked if the navy ever had to deal with skilled Soviet sub crews. What you believe had tghe advantage will come down to who you supported the US or the USSR becuase no one really knows who would win.

Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
Edit
RE: Subs vs Aircrafts
Posted: February 14, 2006 (4:03 AM)
Good posts!

I think 40 US subs vs 120 USSR subs. Even US were better are outnumbered, so. .
But I think USSR didn't made so much subs to be only steel.
Oscar for ex. support a direct hit from one torpile. In august 2000 exploded 2 torpiles, so Kursk was destroyed.
Oscar is 3 times bigger than any US sub. Think about Typhoon more bigger!
Soviet thought very carrefully at the design, when decided to make such a sub - 30.000 tones.
For present think about Bulava!

USA didn't know so much about soviet arsenal, and thought they are weaker. After 1991 data begin to be revealed and USA saw Soviet was not so weaker.

Like you said, it is hard to say hwo is better in this domain, but I'm going to say Soviet/Russia, maibe I'm wrong.


Posted by
thisisreal (110)
Edit
RE: Subs vs Aircrafts
Posted: March 25, 2006 (7:02 PM)
actually during the height of the Cold War, the Soviet had 62 subs in its strategic submarine fleet. NOw, they have 12 boats--six Delta IVs and six Delta IIIs--. HOw the mighty have fallen. I'm just wondering how long Russian boomers stay out on patrol.

Posted by
thisisreal (110)
Edit
RE: Subs vs Aircrafts
Posted: March 25, 2006 (7:04 PM)
Two typhoons are non-operational due to the lack of missiles to carry. The other is trials ship for the new Bulava missile.

Posted by
Greek (44)
Edit
RE: Subs vs Aircrafts
Posted: January 19, 2007 (7:21 PM)
This thread started on 20-1-06. Here we are one year later with a new weapon for the sub commanders.
On my previous reply I wrote about detection b2win subs & aircrafts.
Now let's talk about weapons: Till now the aircrafts were the only ones being able to attack subs with torpedoes, depth charges, mines and ASuW missiles (if the sub was on the surface). But, in the near future sub commanders will be able to strike back or even first! The new weapon is a sub-launched Anti-air missile! US scientists consider of modifying an AIM-9X for underwater deployment. The Germans are working on a similar project called MIDAS. And the French are also modifying their MICAs to be fired from subs.

The whole thing will not be very different from firing i.e a SUB-HARPOON. Initial targeting can be achieved through ESM. It is said that once out of the water, the missle will be able to be guided through the sub's combat system, but I doubt whether this will be usefull, since it will more likely require the use of radar. And of course, there is always the possibility that the missile will miss and the lucky pilot will pass the word to additional ASW assets.

Despite those problems though, it is certain that a sub armed with such missiles, will keep enemy pilots on the lookout for a threat that will appear from nowhere!


Posted by
MarlboroManX (48)
Edit
RE: Subs vs Aircrafts
Posted: November 27, 2007 (1:46 AM)
Since the invention of the submarine the best solution when faced with aircraft is to hide.

Subs can pick up aircraft with their own radars though it gives away their position. Subs can also pick up some aircraft on their sonar if they fly near enough. US submarines would evade Tu-95's because the enormous sound of their engines made them audible even deep under water. Against other aircraft though this is not necessarily reliable.

Aircraft can pick up subs in a variety of ways. Sono-Buoys are common especially when trying to hunt submarines. The US relies more on helicopters than fixed wing aircraft for this, using helicopters to carry torpedoes to drop on top of sonar contacts.

This is the primary reason the Soviet Union worked on developing effective SAMs that could be launched submerged from submarines. US does the same thing now.

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