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flagons and firebars
Friday, March 31, 2006 (2:36 PM)

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Posted by
fiddler (14)
Edit
flagons and firebars
what was the best soviet aircraft of the cold war.ok most would say mig 21,mig 25 or tu 22m.thats fair enough.but i hope noboby forgets the others,they have seemed to have faded into oblivion.lets hear it for the blinders,firebars,brewers and flagons.can enyone tell me how meny of these fantastic aircraft are left,is there eny airworthy these days,or eny other oldies for that matter like bisons,badgers and fishpots.

Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
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RE: flagons and firebars
Posted: March 31, 2006 (2:54 PM)
Maybe in museums. For now look at http://www.royfc.com/cgi-bin/today/acft_news.cgi - the news from russian miliary. Every day will apear news (with some exception). There are news about PAKFA, Su-34 Tu-160.
Bison, Badger etc are forgot.
Some MiG-21 are in service still today, right.

Posted by
fiddler (14)
Edit
RE: flagons and firebars
Posted: April 1, 2006 (1:25 PM)
i think china still use badgers dont they?.wat do they call them h-6s or something.the aviation world wouldent be the same if there was no fishbeds flying.but i would give my right arm to see a old tu 128 doing a display at fairford or somewhere like that,that would be awesome wouldent it.i dont know if enyone can remember,but in old publications they wrote about a interceptor version of the tu 22 blinder.it was all probably rubbish but i wonder if one was ever made,now that would have been a interesting peice of kit.

Posted by
Foxhound (131)
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RE: flagons and firebars
Posted: April 1, 2006 (9:25 PM)
An anwser to your question.

Would depend on who you asked and what parameters you seek.

Would you look at performance stats? There are two ways to look at that; overall, and for the inital operational generation(Time-frame.)

Combat record? On the surface Russian jets(according to "offical" western and some mid-east records) have poor records.

However; if one looked at all sources.

The 21 aquitted itself well as most jet kills in 'nam were MiG-17's (likely some Sino-produced equivalent as well.) It was employed to good effect during the Indio-Pak wars. And most Israeli kills were scored on jets sitting on the ground. A fact glossed over, yet, if one reads close enough revealed, it the publications of some "experts."

And as far as the gun-site and other evidence? In some cases one would not require a lope to see it's the same plane shot from different angles, or substandard collage work.

The MiG-25 has scored two exceptional kills (based on circumstance surrounding.) One finally confirmed, one questionable(Fact, IMHO.)

The Ethiopian conflict pitted Su-27 against MiG-29, in an even-handed match as can be found. The Su-27 came out on top of that.

The MiG-31(along with its cousin the 25,) has made some successful intercepts including SR-71's.

As well one can in most cases, Russian aircraft were either, killed on the tarmac, out numbered, out dated, flown by inadequately trained persons, did not have any support(AWACS, ect,) and many models were controlled(in a sense) by an outmoded GCI system.

My votes: MiG-15,21,25,31. Su-24,27. Tu-128/28P.

This is not criticize the Israeli tactics, as they show some true brilliance.

As well the training of US and Israeli Pilots.
For a time (at least 38 years) both countries have trained theirs parallel to pro-boxers, with sound fundamentals from the book, but allowing for creative thinking and devloping sublime "tricks" as well.

Whereas: Russia and many other nations did and some still do, train(ed) purely academic.

Foxhound:


Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
Edit
RE: flagons and firebars
Posted: April 2, 2006 (7:22 AM)
"The MiG-25 has scored two exceptional kills (based on circumstance surrounding.) One finally confirmed, one questionable(Fact, IMHO.)" - tell me about it please, I don't know anything about that.

About soviet/russian made aircraft losses : "As well one can in most cases, Russian aircraft were either, killed on the tarmac, out numbered, out dated, flown by inadequately trained persons, did not have any support(AWACS, ect,) and many models were controlled(in a sense) by an outmoded GCI system." -- I agree.

"Whereas: Russia and many other nations did and some still do, train(ed) purely academic" - I read about russians training here: http://www.royfc.com/acft_news_old_mar1.html#10mar post 7 march 2006. It is unbelieveble.


Posted by
fiddler (14)
Edit
RE: flagons and firebars
Posted: April 2, 2006 (10:18 AM)
pilot skills and training are very important.just look at the falkland conflict,the royal navy sea harriers up against the presumably more capable mirage 3 and daggers.ok some may argue it was the aim 9L winder that made the differnce.but i disagree.the royal navy pilots was far better trianed,and used better tactics.its true US and israli pilots are trained to a high degree.in some of the conflicts if the aircraft used was reversed.say the iraqis flew f 15s and the yanks flew mig 23s.the outcome would have been the same.in the korean conflict the f 86 was said to have a 10-1 kill ratio over the mig 15.but a number of soviet WW 2 aces notched up a large number of kills in there migs,including a fair number of sabres.ive heard about the foxbat downing a hornet over iraq,what was the other kill.

Posted by
Foxhound (131)
Edit
RE: flagons and firebars
Posted: April 5, 2006 (8:07 PM)
Sukhoy. I would not put much stock into that website.

The person is/was a military linguist, and he spent 20 years in the USAF. While that is not a "bad" thing. In fact it shows a degree of dedication, an honorable trait for sure. It would cast some doubt as to objectivity (both his own, and of his sources.)

Needless to say most analysts, Bill Gunston for exa. Report that the state of the Russian airfleet, Pilots, Ground Crew, and other support functions, is steadly improving.

Foxhound: Out.


Posted by
thisisreal (110)
Edit
RE: flagons and firebars
Posted: April 5, 2006 (11:43 PM)
"And most Israeli kills were scored on jets sitting on the ground."
Actually, air-to-air engagement kills.

Posted by
fiddler (14)
Edit
RE: flagons and firebars
Posted: April 6, 2006 (4:03 PM)
i wonder if them hundreds of stored mig-23s will ever fly again.if they decide to give them away,ill be first in line.

Posted by
Foxhound (131)
Edit
RE: flagons and firebars
Posted: April 6, 2006 (8:33 PM)
Just like Ukraine is a non-existant "Banana Republic," named after a clothing line.

'Cause we all know that term is just a clothing line.


Posted by
thisisreal (110)
Edit
RE: flagons and firebars
Posted: April 8, 2006 (10:05 PM)
"The MiG-31(along with its cousin the 25,) has made some successful intercepts including SR-71's."
Where do you come up with all these bullshit.

"Combat record? On the surface Russian jets(according to "offical" western and some mid-east records) have poor records."
CAn you name one engagement in chich a mig-29 has shot down an enemy aircraft. I think MIg-29 shooting down its wingman's mig-23 is its only kill.

I don't want this to be another Russia-sucks thread but I can't help it when you're coming up with loads of BS.

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