Stealth and the F-22
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Stealth and the F-22
Thursday, June 21, 2007 (12:22 PM)

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Posted by
Rediculous (15)
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Stealth and the F-22
Hey fellas, seeing how this is a Russian site I thought I'd share some of the things I know about stealth and the f-22 that contradict some of the things I read around here.

Just my two cents on stealth:
If you define stealth as radar invisibility, then it is just as you say, a myth. Only thin air is invisible to radar. The US stealth tech uses shape blending and serrated edges to deflect radar beams as well as RAM to absorb it, leaving very little left to return to the sender. This greatly reduces the range at which a stealthy a/c can be detected which is a huge advantage if say an f-22 can be firing missiles before the Su-whatever can detect it. Another plus is that reduced signatures of the f-22 are said to match that of an insect on radar.This can explain why the f-117 got shot down from 15km. any stealthy a/c can be detected and targeted at a close enough range. Most radars automatically filter out small signatures to prevent millions of blips from cluttering the screen, in this case a stealthy a/c may simply be disregarded by the computer as routine ambient noise. For those who make the case that radar emissions will give away the raptor's presence, you must remember that its greatest advantage is its integrated sensor suite that lets them work together with unrivaled efficiency. One senario is a two ship raptor team on the hunt with one hanging back out of missile range using its long range APG-77 (google the unclassified specs, its impressive)and sending targeting info by secure datalink to the second raptor who supercruises in range, with its radar completely silent, to take the shot undetected. The only warning the enemy a/c will get is the bleep as the AMRAAM goes active within its kill zone. Pretty cool stuff.

- A little off topic, I dont understand how the f-22's aerodynamics can be considered flawed by its stealthy shaping. We've come a long way since the nighthawk. The f-22 has a higher thrust to weight ratio than any sukhoi, lower wingloading, larger control surfaces, more sophisticated avionics (she's expensive for a reason), and flies clean when in combat configuration (much less drag). The raptor supercruises at a PROVEN (many sources out there) mach 1.72, and operates at a higher ceiling than any Sukhoi (max ceiling classified but pilots claim mach 2 performance between 50,000 and 60,000ft) IMO the raptor could easily outfly any COMBAT LOADED aircraft out there. If you need proof check out the newer videos on youtube from the 2007 airshows. thats in COMBAT CONFIGURATION baby!

- feel free to flame me out I love to argue!


Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
Edit
RE: Stealth and the F-22
Posted: June 26, 2007 (3:27 PM)
Right, you are right. But why you compare F-22 (5th gen) with Su-30/35 (4th gen)? I didn't see any western guy comparing F-4 vs MiG-29 for example. Please be fair.

In my opinion F-22 is little beter than Su-30/35 but let's wait for next SU (5th gen). While we waited for about almost 20 years to see a fighter better than MiG-29 and Su-27, we can wait about 7 years for next SU. I hope you understand my point.


Posted by
fulcrum29M (2)
Edit
RE: Stealth and the F-22
Posted: July 2, 2007 (2:56 AM)
Good post Rediculous, but I think you have overlooked certain details so here is my two cents worth of a response to you,

Stealth undoubtedly is a remarkable technology, but its fundamental flaw is that it is not a permanent solution of any kind. I mean to say that it needs to be used in conjunction to precarious planning and reliable intelligence. Because radar cross-sections differ at various angles the a/c body makes with the radar transmitter. If the a/c is heading directly into the radar then stealth is most effective, but if it is a side profile then the range deficit that stealth provides is minimum. Further, you ignore altitude difference completely and it obviously increases the radar cross-section. So basically when push comes to shove and the F-22 is in the middle of a delicate un-planned A to A combat situation then stealth may not prove as effective. Now I am not questioning its usefulness but is does Stealth technology live up to its Hype?

I Youtubed a bit and saw some F22 demos and I honestly found them impressive.

Now take a look at these links :-
Mig 29 OVT
Su 30 Mki

The F22 I feel is not even in the same class of Manouverability. All the demo`s showed me was extensive use of Thrust Vectoring (not even all aspect) Capabilities. Also consider this saying, “In a Combat Aircraft, how fast you go is not as important as how fast you get to that speed”. I am only pointing out that power is extremely important and, as any aviation enthusiast will tell you, is more important than top speed. Also The Su 30s radar has PESA technology which has its own pros and cons as compared to AESA technology. Oh yeah, the Su 30 has a 360 degree radar image an its seeking range of 200 nautical miles and Data link capability makes it a mini AWACS. Notice how I didn’t use the words Secure Data link because in the EW world nothing can be secure for too long if ever.

What is actually really impressive is the Supercruise. However the Su 30 can linger on the battlefield for up to 10 hrs at a stretch and the good old Russian goodies packages like durability, less maintenance, ability to land on semi-prepared airstrips, etc.

And i`ll end my argument on the note that the F-22 prototype once had to belly flop because of a computer glich wherein the computer could not switch to Landing mode resulting in no undercarriage. On inspection it was revealed that the problem was a cockroach in the landing computer that had caused a short circuit in the IC. Now a Russian Aircraft doesn`t need its factory following it to forward airstrips. And I assure you, no battlefield in the world is absolutely dust free atleast not in Southern Asia.

- Looking forward to your remarks.


Posted by
Rediculous (15)
Edit
RE: Stealth and the F-22
Posted: July 2, 2007 (9:04 AM)
Thanks for the responses guys!

Sukhoy, I completely agree with you. I only compared the f-22 with the older Su's in terms of manuverability because there are many threads on this site that do so. I look foreward for the unveiling of the PAK-FA and truely believe that it will be the Raptor's first true competitor.

Fulcrum 29, You bring up a few good points. First of all, I have seen the videos of the Su-30 with TV as well as the OVT and they are VERY impressive and really fun to watch. The main aspect that sets the raptor apart, and is showcased in the demos, is its complete control through the entire AA envelope. The raptor shows this with its hovers and double reversal manuvers. If you watch closely you will notice that the Su's and Mig's appear to lose control at very high angles of attack (their noses clearly wander around and they only regain complete control when they pick up airspeed). In the F-22 videos, the pilot is clearly able to point his nose in any direction at any speed due to the massive T/W ratio. I agree that the Russian designs seem to execute the manuvers at a faster pace than the raptor, but I also think that we still havn't seen its full capability (I wouldn't think that the AF would want to put too much stress on a 120 million airframe at an airshow either). I guess we will have to wait for the 2008 raptor demo team for a clearer idea.
Secondly, I don't see why the f-22 would not have good acceleration. It has a higher T/W ratio than any other fighter out there FULLY LOADED and it also flies clean. F-15 pilots have commented that while in full burner the f-22 out accelerates them on dry thrust! The raptor's slow recovery in the videos showcases its exceptional control at slow speeds. A good example of the raptor's power and accl. is youtubes "2007 over Langely" where the pilot pulls a VERY tight 360 degree turn and retains enough energy to instantly go vertical and merge into a helicopter manuver.
Thirdly, While the F-22's performance and stealth are great attributes, its best characteristic is its sensor suite, display,and radar's ability to increase pilot awareness. This allows the f-22 pilot to track targets and threats well before it is detected and enter the battle on its own terms. Instead of fumbling with the controls like those in older jets, the f-22's computer works to aleviate the pilot's workload and allow him to concentrate on the mission, thus allowing him to get that desired head on merge. Oh, and watch out for those PESA radars, the French rafales have them and they are. ehhhhhh.
Lastly, the Production F-22 is vastly improved from the prototype. The prototype used 80's tech while the production version is much newer and much more reliable. After the first few glitches are worked out. ahem Kaneda haha (whoops). It should be very reliable and it will require much less maintenence than legacy jets.

Thanks for reading, I look foreward to further debate!


Posted by
Rediculous (15)
Edit
RE: Stealth and the F-22
Posted: July 13, 2007 (9:34 AM)
Update: It was an RAAF F-15 that could not achieve weapons lock on the F-22 WVR.

-"I can't see the expletive deleted> thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. Flying against the F-22> annoys the hell out of me."

Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth, but also its unmatched maneuverability and power.
http://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp

This solidifies my points. It was a foreign F-15 so the story cannot simply be regarded as American propeganda.

Any thoughts?


Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
Edit
RE: Stealth and the F-22
Posted: July 17, 2007 (4:37 PM)
Was RAAF the closest ally to USA. So, it is propaganda.

Posted by
TheMagicMan (10)
Edit
RE: Stealth and the F-22
Posted: October 7, 2007 (11:18 PM)
Sukhoy you are right the RAAF is the closet ally but you can say the same for russia and it's joint and internal excercises. Well the PESA does not have a better range the the raptors AESA. Why do you think russian aircraft are upgrading to the AESA. No sense in downgrading. But Alot of good points made here. Well Besides the chart below, the f-22 would kill an SU-35 in BVR. The f-22 is upgrading to AIM-120D and Sidewinder-9X, which will have a missile range up to 120miles. In a dogfight it would depend. In veryhigh altitude the Raptor would have no problem because it is the only aircraft capable of doing 4-5g's that high. In lower altitude I would give it to SU-35 and even then it would depend on speed because raptor is made for higher speed dogfights. It would also depend on pilot training and what positions they are both in. I belive in the future 95%+ will depend on BVR any way. As technology is making huge leaps dogfights will soon be a thing of the past. Other factors will make more of a difference like Radar, Altitude, Missiles, Future Steath, Speed, Supercruise, and Even UCAV. So dogfighting will be a thing of the past. Plus The f-22 hasn't shown it's true capabilities in dogfighting yet. So we all have to wait and see. Here is a chart of the f-22 vs other fighters. Well I put it together and was trying not to be bias. Anyone please update my information. Thanks. Oh and Links are at the bottom of the page.

Comparison among F-22A, Su-35, EF-2000, and RAFALE C

1. Normal take-offF
* F-22A: 27,200 kg
* Su-35: 25,300 kg
* EF-2K: 17,000 kg
* Rafale: 15,000 kg

2. MTOWF
* F-22A: 28,120 kg
* Su-35: 34,500 kg
* EF-2K: 23,500 kg
* Rafale: 24,500 kg

3. Internal FuelF
* F-22A: 9,330 kg
* Su-35: 11,500 kg
* EF-2K: 5,000 kg
* Rafale: 4,750 kg

4. Maximal PayloadF
* F-22A: unknown
* Su-35: 8,000 kg
* EF-2K: 7,500 kg+
* Rafale: 9,500 kg

5. Maximal Speed, 11,000 mF
* F-22A: 2.00 Mach+ (2.25 ~ 2.42 Mach)
* Su-35: 2.25 Mach
* EF-2K: 2.00 Mach+ (2.25 Mach)
* Rafale: 1.80 Mach+ (2.00 Mach)

6. Maximal speed, 200 mF
* F-22A: 800 kts
* Su-35: 1,400 km/hr
* EF-2K: 1.14 Mach
* Rafale: 750 kts

7. Climb rateF
* F-22A: 350 m/sec, sea-level
* Su-35: 280 m/sec+, 1,000 m
* EF-2K: 315 m/sec+, sea-level
* Rafale: 305 m/sec+, sea-level

8. Operational AltitudeF
* F-22A: 70,000 fts
* Su-35: 59,000 fts
* EF-2K: 65,000 fts
* Rafale: 55,000 fts

9. Ferry rangeF
* F-22A: 3,500 km (Internal Fuel)
* Su-35: 4,500 km (Internal Fuel + 2000 L tanks*2)
* EF-2K: 2,600 km (Internal Fuel)
* Rafale: 2,100 km (Internal Fuel)

10. AccelerationF

* F-22A: unknown.

* Su-35: 13.8 secs from 600 km/hr to 1,100 km/hr, and 8 secs from 1,100 km/hr to 1,300 km/hriwith 50% internal fuel, standard A-A configuration, and height of 1,000 mj.

* EF-2K: less than 20 seconds from 200 kts to Mach 0.9 (Twin-seaters with one 1,000 L tank and two ASRAAM, altitude unknown).

* Rafale: around 20 seconds from 300 km/hr to 1,000 km/hr at low altitude.

11. Normal upper G-limitF
* F-22A: +9.5G
* Su-35: +9.0G
* EF-2K: +9.0G
* Rafale: +9.0G

12. T/W ratio of normal take-offiAB / Max. Mil.jF
* F-22A: 1.17 ~ 1.30 / 0.85 ~ 0.87
* Su-35: 1.10 ~ 1.15 / 0.69 ~ 0.70
* EF-2K: 1.08 ~ 1.14 / 0.72 ~ 0.83
* Rafale: 1.02 ~ 1.03 / 0.68 ~ 0.69

13. Take-off with standard A-A configurationF
* F-22A: 244 m
* Su-35: 400 to 450 m
* EF-2K: 228 ~ 275 miEmergency take-offjto 457 miNormal take-offj.
* Rafale: 400 m

14. LandingF
* F-22A: unknown.
* Su-35: 650 miwith the help of braking and parachutej
* EF-2K: 500 to 700 m
* Rafale: 400 miwith the help of braking onlyj

15. Radar's rangeF

* F-22A: Tracking target of RCS = 1 m2 at the range of 200 km away -- Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 375 to 440 km away theoretically -- 329 ~ 386.

* Su-35: Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 350 to 400 km away -- 307 ~ 351.

* EF-2K: Tracking target of RCS = 5 m2 at the range of 160 ~ 185 km away -- Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 200 to 272 km away theoretically -- 175 ~ 239.

* Rafale: Detecting target of RCS = 5 m2 at the range of 130 ~ 148 km away -- Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 114 to 130 km away theoretically -- 100 ~ 114.

16. Maximal horizontal scanning angle of RadarF
* F-22A: +/- 60 degrees
* Su-35: +/-120 degrees
* EF-2K: +/- 70 degrees
* Rafale: +/- 60 degrees

17. Capability of multiple target engagementF
* F-22A: Tracking 100 and engaging 6+.
* Su-35: Tracking 30 and engaging 8.
* EF-2K: Tracking 20+ and engagine 6 to 8.
* Rafale: Tracking 40 and engaging 4 to 6.

18. Frontal minimal RCS / Ratio of RCS / Ratio of range being detected:
* F-22A: 0.00015 ~ 0.0006 m2 -- 1 ~ 4 -- 1.00 ~ 1.41
* Su-35: 1.0 ~ 3.0 m2 -- 6666 ~ 20000 -- 9.03 ~ 11.89
* EF-2K: 0.1 ~ 0.5 m2 -- 666 ~ 3333 -- 5.08 ~ 7.60
* Rafale: 0.1 ~ 0.2 m2 -- 666 ~ 1332 -- 5.08 ~ 6.04

19. Su-35 v.s other western fighters:

* Theoretically, F-22A shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 285 to 440 km / 200 to 308 km away in head to hea


Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
Edit
RE: Stealth and the F-22
Posted: October 8, 2007 (4:05 PM)
Pretty good informations but I have some questions regarding normal and maximum take of for F-22 - 27000kg and 28000kg. Almost the same.
Ferry range for Su-35 without tanks is 4000Km and with tanks 5200km.
Maybe there is other errors, but those infos are pretty good.

Posted by
aliseps2 (5)
Edit
RE: Stealth and the F-22
Posted: February 27, 2009 (11:32 AM)
f-22 for many years will be the best. at least till 2025.

Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
Edit
RE: Stealth and the F-22
Posted: April 23, 2009 (2:50 AM)
If US and Russia are equal.then it should a normal behaviour that F-22 will be the best for 20 years from now. Why? Because Su-27 was the best in the world on its class from 1985 to 2007 when F-22 appears. So 20 years for Russia, another 20 for US but I think will not be so much. It will be about 10 years for US supremacy and than Russia will have in service a better aircraft.
There is a serious problem for Russia: even if it can make a better equipment, Russia has not enought money to buy them. F-22 is in service since 2007 and US have 100+ already. Russia? Hardly a few Su-34 and Su-27SM were bought and T-50 will be more expensive than 4+ generation. However, I see more orders from Russia than from US on the market due to lower price.
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