Plasma Stealth Bah!
Home
Book a Flight
Flight Prices
Special Offers!
Price Guarantee
Price a Flight
- Order Process
Calendar
Zero-G Flights
Gift Certificates
Hotels
Spb. Hotels

Why FlyMiG.Com?
Aircraft
In the Media
Contact Us
Questions
Flight Stories
About Us
MAKS 2003
MAKS 2005
Updates

Avia X-change
Aviation Forum
Cool Stuff
Affiliates
Mail Lists
iPod
PostCards
Search
Links
Aviation Books
Videos
Wallpaper



 Russian Visa online


RC Clubs
Code your Mac
Manuals
Database for Sale


Search Google
 
Main Forum Page | Start new Thread | Edit your AD | Search Forum

Plasma Stealth Bah!
Monday, April 21, 2008 (6:27 AM)

Reply to this threadRSS Feed
Posted by
MarlboroManX (48)
Edit
Plasma Stealth Bah!
I swear if I read one more person claiming the Russians are hiding some super-advanced plasma stealth I am going to go insane.

Plasma Stealth is no different than the X-Ray Laser from the SDI Program, something that sounds scary but is unfeasible to operate.
And is thus pure fantasy meant to intimidate the other guy.

Anyone with some basic knowledge in physics knows the system won't work. Allow me to correct one error I made in a previous post, plasmas do not have a charge they are neutral, it is only the individual ions that have a charge however balanced numbering means no net charge.

With no net charge to the plasma there is no way to keep it attracted to the body of the aircraft unless russians have also developed the technology for active force fields. (Ha!)

Ionizing a large quanitity of gas would require an enormous and continuous supply of power as it would have to do so constantly as it moved through the sky. Phase shift leads plasma to inherently be colored leaving a large visual footprint. In addition to this you have a big heat signature regardless of the temperature of the plasma because you have to have something on board generating the energy for it. With that kind of demand a battery simply wouldn't cut it.

Also lets take into account that the atmosphere contains oxygen, nitrogen and CO2. Does anyone here actually know what a plasma is? A plasma is a substance that has been heated so far beyond its boiling point that the individual atomic nuclei are split from the electrons allowing the electrons to flow freely through the medium as ions.

If you wanted to turn the atmosphere around the aircraft into plasma you would have to produce so much heat that nothing short of a fully-heat shielded (and thus very heavy) aircraft is going to survive it, and it is still going to leave a massive IR signature. And such a heat shielded craft wouldnt be able to handle it for so long. Your only other option would be to store plasma on board in some form which would give you how long? A few seconds? If you want me to I'll do the math for you, I'd wager even with a Tu-160 storing the plasma you'd have at best a few seconds.

Also lets not forget that plasma is a form of matter, radiating energy due to its relative heat. Plasma around orbiting rentry craft disappears from radar because the field of plasma disperses the radar beams away from the source much like a stealth shaped aircraft. Radar is effected by air speed and denisty this is why supersonic aircraft are easier to detect than slow ones.

Also on heat, heat invariably transfered from a warmer medium to a colder one. This means that unless you are carrying a supply of plasma on board you are going to radiate heat. See above for problems about supply and heating of atmospheric air.

Also lets not forget that since the development of modern Pulse-Doppler and AESA radars the systems can in fact track objects as they come in through the atmosphere. You can't create a bubble of air (or plasma) moving that fast that is not going to show up on some kind of sensor system.

Also lets not forget if you did somehow create this bubble of plasma that didn't show up on a radar the bubble is going to be shot to hell the moment you fire a weapon as it is going to disrupt the bubble.

Now lets say somehow you were able to keep a plasma on board in sufficient quanity to properly cloak the aircraft for any length of time. For this to work its going to have to be a medium that is either already plasma, gas, or liquid.

We'll use Dry Ice as it would be a likely candidate for such an operation.

Dry Ice could be vented and heated in some form to produce plasma then vented out of the aircraft. Once it is heated it will vent as plasma, however thermodynamics dictate that once in the atmosphere it is going to rapidly cool back into a normal gas which is going to leave a dense air pocket which will show up even on a Doppler Radar.

If you store the plasma as a pre-existing plasma you're not going to be able to carry very much as plasma per atom require even more volume than gasses. If you compress it to carry a large supply this compression will cause it to become gas liquid or solid. (Nuclear powerplants utilize water heated many times beyond its boiling point that never vaporizes because it is under compression). Thus you are still going to have to heat it up to get an effect (see previous points) And if you store it as plasma you are going to have a piss-poor amount of it to work with by volume.

If you store the plasma as a liquid you are going to have to flash-fry it through two stages to become plasma putting off an inordinate amount of heat.

If you use a "cold" plasma you are restricted to the gas or plasma option as the energy required to keep it liquid or frozen to allow for storage by volume would be like carrying a very large (and heat generating) refrigitator in the aircraft with you.

There is only one other possible


Posted by
MarlboroManX (48)
Edit
RE: Plasma Stealth Bah!
Posted: April 21, 2008 (6:30 AM)
And that would be to use some kind of magnetic system to strip electrons apart from the atoms and molecules as you travel which would still require a large amount of energy and thus presence of heat. Not to mention a non-existant technology.

Lets not even get into the problems you'd have with drag and aerodynamics when this plasma field disrupts the Burnuley (spelling?) effect.

Plasma Stealth is not real, get over it. If Russia is going to go down the Stealth path they're going to go the same road as the US has, and the one China is currently working on.

For a more simple argument
Plasma
You know what else is Plasma?
Lighting! And Lighting shows up on Radar.
Why? Because like all plasmas it is a large field of electrically conductive ionized gas.


Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
Edit
RE: Plasma Stealth Bah!
Posted: August 6, 2008 (4:40 AM)
About plasma shield I know very few. On www there are few information and with little detalis. I know that russians tried to reproduce scenario with plasma shield like they see on every soyuz capsule re-entry in atmosphere. On re-entry that capsule is invisible to any radar for a few seconds.

I read once that they tried on MiG-21 vs MiG-31. Theoretically 100 times reduces signature on Zaslon radar but practically only 5 times. I don't know how it work exacly, I don't know how it is powered. I think we talk about a secret project and is normal not to know very much. Maybe russians told about plasma shield but in fact isn't a real and known plasma. .
Russians use as a countermeasure some kind of other tech. like active cancelation. France use it too.


Posted by
MarlboroManX (48)
Edit
RE: Plasma Stealth Bah!
Posted: October 10, 2008 (6:30 AM)
Not a known plasma? Plasma is the 4th state of matter, solid, liquid, gas, plasma, all reliant on heat. If you want to see any possible plasma you look at the periodic table of elements to see them. Everything from hydrogen up is there and accounted for, and any of those things can be turned into plasma if heated properly. None of them however escape the problems I have already mentioned.

(And don't anyone give me any guff about how it may be an unknown element. An element's properties are determined by its protonic number, there aren't really any gaps in the periodic table where a secret element could hiding)

Not really a plasma? That would be the only possible way, but then it wouldn't plasma stealth would it?

Active cancellation? This is an interesting idea but there is a difference between ECM, jamming, and physical active cancellation. You cannot go through complete active cancellation without producing a wavelength of what you are cancelling which can and will be detected.

Plasma Stealth, Russia simply doesn't have it and that is why you see in every new generation of Su more and more RCS reducing features on the body of the aircraft. Saying Russia has plasma stealth is like saying the US has building-shattering sound based weapons on the B-2. Both sound really cool, both are exciting to think about, but neither is actually in existance. In the future perhaps? I won't rule anything out, I doubt the Wright Brothers could have forseen the F-22 and the Su-35, but as far as there here and now is concerned, it ain't there.


Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
Edit
RE: Plasma Stealth Bah!
Posted: December 8, 2008 (3:58 AM)
I don't want to say plasma is a very complex tech or it is insuficient understand but to use it on hidind an aircraft (on radar) it is a pretty hard work. If it was easy many nations would use it. All that is known is some nations were done some tests on aero-space domain.

Posted by
MarlboroManX (48)
Edit
RE: Plasma Stealth Bah!
Posted: December 12, 2008 (2:07 PM)
Not to mention another problem with plasma is that plasma due to a product of heat and volume is lighter and thus more bouyant, meaning that any attempt to project plasma around the aircraft is going to result in it literally floating up and away from said aircraft even if that aircraft is not in motion. Add air turbulence from motion to that, and it is only going to exacerbate the effect.

Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
Edit
RE: Plasma Stealth Bah!
Posted: January 13, 2009 (9:51 AM)
The scientists know better. They know something if they started to reserch more and more. Spacecraft that enter in atmosphere is surrounded by plasma that disable ability to comunicate with ground.
However we still wait for a real aplications.

Regards


Posted by
MarlboroManX (48)
Edit
RE: Plasma Stealth Bah!
Posted: April 11, 2009 (9:34 PM)
The scientists know better?

Its basic physics man. And the ability to detect objects on entry through the atmosphere has existed for some time. You can't create a big ball of electrically conductive gas without it being detectable on modern sensors.

Again I say, plasma, you know what else is plasma? Lighting is plasma, and lighting will show up on a crossing radar. Ita the same reason a radio "skips" if lighting ignites overhead while you are listening.

Also consider that air turbulence can increase radar return, stealth aircraft have a bigger RCS at high speed than lower because churning air can reflect radio waves (just ask a ham radio operator) radar is a radio wave, if you have this big mixing ball of gas, the mixing of that gas will reflect radar. Thus you could accidentally increase your return with plasma rather than reduce it.

I'm a pretty open-minded guy and its rare I'll say something can't be done. But with basic knowledge of physics and radar operation, the likelyhood of a plasma-based stealth system diminishes rapidly.

Its as I've said before its like the X-ray laser, its a ploy, not real. And again I say it is the reason why Russian aircraft more and more are incorporating Western style RCS reducing features in their aircraft.


Posted by
Sukhoy (488)
Edit
RE: Plasma Stealth Bah!
Posted: April 13, 2009 (3:34 AM)
I understand your point of view but plasma applications are tested in aeronautics by russians and americans. I am very curious what kind of stealth will have incorporate Sukhoi T-50. It will be made by russians and indians and posibly by brasilians all together.

Posted by
MarlboroManX (48)
Edit
RE: Plasma Stealth Bah!
Posted: April 13, 2009 (10:37 AM)
Plasma applications are being tested yes, but from what I have seen that is credible, and allowable within the laws of science plasma applications are being used to improve aerodynamics on an aircraft. I could get into a long detailed explination about it, but don't really want to so I won't unless asked to. But basically the plasma applications lower air density through displacement, thus providing a net increase in drag coefficient to the aircraft, they are not stealth systems. And while plasma can reduce the drag coefficient it would invariably be a trade off resulting in improved aerodynamics but diminished maneuverability.

Personally I think plasma "stealth" is a ploy to hide something else the Russians are doing. What I am not sure, but my guess is that it is to hide progress their research has made into aerodynamics via plasma.


Posted by
FakeLunar69 (1)
Edit
RE: Plasma Stealth Bah!
Posted: October 15, 2010 (5:32 PM)
And what is the IR signature of the proposed Russian plasma stealth air defence? (distribution, peak et cetera) and, if it can be made to work and if it just happens not to be in the present detection range of IR seeking missiles (some 8 to 13 ╬╝metres, I believe) and there are no other suitable compounds with the required electronic band gaps, what then?
Reply to this threadRSS Feed

Main Forum Page | Start new Thread | Edit your AD | Search Forum

Home | Book a Flight | Flight Prices | Special Offers! | Price Guarantee | Price a Flight | - Order Process | Calendar | Zero-G Flights | Gift Certificates | Hotels | Spb. Hotels

Why FlyMiG.Com? | Aircraft | In the Media | Contact Us | Questions | Flight Stories | About Us | MAKS 2003 | MAKS 2005 | Updates

Avia X-change | Aviation Forum | Cool Stuff | Affiliates | Mail Lists | iPod | PostCards | Search | Links | Pilots

Del.icio.usDiggYahoo.RedditSlashDotTechnoratiTwitterBlinkListConnoteaFaceBookFurlGoogle.NewsVinePropeller.StumbleUponWindows Live


Honda CRX Si | Manuals |
   Copyright © FlyMiG.Com™ 2002 - 2018